Sorry I’m just now getting back to you, I’ve been very busy. I think we agree with each other in many ways. I’m happy you don’t believe in the calvinist view that once you are saved you cannot fall from grace.

It’s true that motives can be wrong and works alone will never get us to heaven. Jesus is the only one that can make that happen. King Benjamin taught that we are all beggers and that no matter what we do it will never be enough.

Mosiah 4:19
19 For behold, are we not all beggars? Do we not all depend upon the same Being, even God, for all the substance which we have, for both food and raiment, and for gold, and for silver, and for all the riches which we have of every kind?

I can assure you I didn’t purposely withhold the entire verse when quoting Paul.. it’s one of my favorite verses. King Benjamin in the same sermon referenced above also makes the point that we have no reason to boast in our own works:

Mosiah 2:20-24
20 I say unto you, my brethren, that if you should render all the thanks and praise which your whole soul has power to possess, to that God who has created you, and has kept and preserved you, and has caused that ye should rejoice, and has granted that ye should live in peace one with another—
21 I say unto you that if ye should serve him who has created you from the beginning, and is preserving you from day to day, by lending you breath, that ye may live and move and do according to your own will, and even supporting you from one moment to another—I say, if ye should serve him with all your whole souls yet ye would be unprofitable servants.
22 And behold, all that he requires of you is to keep his commandments; and he has promised you that if ye would keep his commandments ye should prosper in the land; and he never doth vary from that which he hath said; therefore, if ye do keep his commandments he doth bless you and prosper you.
23 And now, in the first place, he hath created you, and granted unto you your lives, for which ye are indebted unto him.
24 And secondly, he doth require that ye should do as he hath commanded you; for which if ye do, he doth immediately bless you; and therefore he hath paid you. And ye are still indebted unto him, and are, and will be, forever and ever; therefore, of what have ye to boast?

Having said that, there are a couple of reasons that works are important, namely:

1. They are evidence of our faith. If we are not bringing forth fruit meet for repentance, then we don’t have true faith in Jesus Christ, and therefore, do not have access to His divine grace to save us. This is the kind of faith both you and I belive in. We don’t believe that a person who is willfully commiting murder etc is a true deciple of Jesus Christ, and thus is a parkator of His gift of Mercy and Grace.

2. God has made us so that we can do good things and He expects us to use that power. We might disagree in this point but I would like to spot-light the differences below…

Your statement “A Mormon seeks to gain access (and glorify themselves) through service.” may be true for some, but is not what the Church teaches as the right motive. The Church and the Savior Himself teaches that service should grow out of our love for Jesus and His incredible gift to us. It is evidence of our faith in Him and evidence of the sanctification that is taking place in our hearts through the Gift of the Holy Ghost.

But service is something good we CAN do. Mormons don’t believe that we are all born inherently evil. That is a fundamental difference between Calvinist belief and the LDS faith.

My presbytiern minister friend really did believe that a saved person would still be saved even if they murdered. That may not be what you believe, but it follows Calvinistic thought correctly. (Calvinists are found mostly today in the Presbyterian, Southern Baptist, and Evangelical branches of Christianity)

Point 4 of John Calvins Genevan Confession says:

IV. Natural Man

“We acknowledge man by nature to be blind, darkened in understanding, and full of corruption and perversity of heart, so that of himself he has no power to be able to comprehend the true knowledge of God as is proper, nor to apply himself to good works. But on the contrary, if he is left by God to what he is by nature, he is only able to live in ignorance and to be abandoned to all iniquity. Hence he has need to be illumined by God, so that he come to the right knowledge of his salvation, and thus to be redirected in his affections and reformed to the obedience of the righteousness of God.”

As bolded above, they believe the man is incapable of good works and is full of perversity of heart…

This doctrine has led to the idea that because Men and Women cannot do good, They also cannot fall from grace once they are saved. In other words, once they are saved, they now cannot do anything bad in the eyes of God. They believe that we are culpable for Adams sin and that every infant child is born a sinful creature full of guilt. Also every saved person is not accountable for their works anymore. That isn’t to say they believe saved people should go out and sin, but only if they did, it would not matter.

Mormons do not believe this. Our second article of faith is:

“We believe that man will be punished for his own sins and not for Adams transgression.”

Here is how it works:
Everyone is born into the world innocent. They inherit a fallen nature from Adam and Eve (not a sinful nature, but a fallen nature that is subject to temptation and the appetites of the flesh) They also inherit a divine nature from Heavenly Father because before this life each child was literally begotten of the Father who is the Father of our spirits.

Acts 17:28
28 For in Him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.

No child is accountable for any decisions made before the age of accountability. This is because they do not understand fully what they are doing wrong. All children who die before the age of 8 years old are automatically saved by Jesus Christs atonement. After the age of 8, they are accountable and everyone who has ever lived has chosen wrong or sinned at some time or another in their life except for Jesus Christ. No matter what they do, they cannot be saved without the mercy and Grace of Jesus Christ. The way to access this Grace is to:

1. Have faith in the Lord Jesus Christ
2. Repent of your sins
3. Be Baptized and enter into a special covenant with Christ
4. Receive the Gift of the Holy Ghost by the Laying on of hands by those who have authority
5. Endure faithfully to the end of their mortal lives.

Everyone who has ever lived in this world (even those who lived before Christ) will have a chance to accept His gospel in this life or the next. If they have the chance in this life but do not accept it, they will not be saved in His kingdom. If they do not have the chance in this life, but accept it in the next, they will be saved in His kingdom.

Mormonism gives the opportunity for everyone equally who has ever lived on this earth to hear the Gospel message and to accept or reject it.

Because we have a divine nature, being the literal offspring of God, we have inherited the ability to do good. It is expected that we will use this divine inheritance to show our faith in Jesus Christ and to grow to become like our Father in Heaven. When we do this, we show the evidence of our faith and because our faith is pure, we are encircled in the arms of Jesus’ grace and mercy and made clean. We also change. We become better. We go through the process of sanctification. We eventually will become like our Father in Heaven.

That is the fundamental difference. Calvinists believe we are all born sinners. We believe we are born innocent but can and do sin (often in my case!). Calvinists believe unsaved people are incapable of doing good of their own free will. We believe that God has given everyone agency to choose between the good and the evil, and the ability to repent and be forgiven of the sins we commit through the mercy of Jesus Christs atonement. Adams sin is swallowed up in Christ and no one is accountable for it. This means we are only accountable for those things that we have control over.

Calvinists beleive that once in a state of grace, there is nothing a person can do to fall from that grace. We believe that just as Adam and Eve fell we too can fall, and do fall, so we need access to the Saviors atonement to be forgiven and to be saved. After Baptism we embark on a life of learning, repentance, and sanctification. If we stay on this path we are guaranteed salvation through the merits and mercy of Jesus Christ alone.

I hope this clarifies where we agree and may disagree. I believe you are a sincere follower of Christ and may He bless you. I testify that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is His church. I testify that the authority to baptize is found within this church. I also testify that baptisim is a pre-requiste of Salvation. If you would like to know more here is a link:CLICK HERE

In the name of Jesus Christ, amen.

Many thanks

Jonathan from spritzophrenia

No saved Christian in their right mind would tell you it’s OK to commit a murder because Jesus has got you covered. A follower of Jesus would never abuse the grace of God in that way. We understand that we all sin, all the time, but to willfully commit a sin against God’s word is simply not done because we believe the Holy Spirit lives in us and is constantly changing us. This is not to say that you can’t be forgiven of murder, because the bible says clearly that you can be. It just means that you cannot call yourself a follower of Jesus if you would go out and murder someone because Jesus just covered it. We understand the significance of God’s one and only son, being humiliated, beaten and murdered as an innocent man to atone for us. We don’t blow it off as a casual event in history!

What you should be discussing (and also why I can say that Ephesians and James do not contradict one another) has to do with the motivation for works rather than just works on their own. I have a great example.

My mother is Mormon and she told me to be careful because there are always people that will take advantage of me if I’m too generous. I told her that as a Christian, it’s impossible to give too much and be taken advantage of if I do it with the a heart for God. She was confused. I told her that Jesus said “If you do it to one of the least of these my brothers, you have done it unto me.”

She gave me an example of a time she took dinner to a friend that had surgery and the friend said “I really wish I had an apple pie.” She said that she felt like she was being taken advantage of. This is what I mean by a heart for God. If she truly understood she was serving God, nobody could ask too much of us because we owe God everything. James isn’t saying “forget the grace– it’s about works.” He’s saying that if Christ lives in you, you’ll naturally be inclined to serve people. He’s not saying that you have to serve people to get a better spot in heaven. That is twisting God’s word and in my opinion, the book of James is taking a beating by that kind of twisting.

Also, you want to blow off what Paul said. You didn’t even quote the entire verse! He said, “It is by grace we are saved, not by works, so that no man can boast.”

A Follower of Jesus does not boast for themselves…they glorify God through their service. A Mormon seeks to gain access (and glorify themselves) through service.

So next time, look at your heart rather than your deeds!

Joseph Smith and Brigham Young were true prophets of God. Both Joseph and Brigham actually do pass the test of a prophet with flying colors. Sandra Tanner is actually a relative of mine through her husband Jerald. The articles you site by Jerald and Sandra were produced to distort the facts greatly and set up straw men arguments. Jerald and Sandra have been shown to be the true frauds by both LDS and non-LDS scholars alike.

1. The Journal of Discourses is not doctrine of the church and is in no way binding on the members because it was written largely by sources that were not first hand and cannot be relied upon.

2. Here are a few good articles that deal neatly with the issues you have brought up:

Prophetic Test: http://en.fairmormon.org/Joseph_Smith/Prophecies/The_prophetic_test_in_Deuteronomy_18

Brigham Young and “Moon Men”: http://en.fairmormon.org/Brigham_Young/Teachings/Moon_and_sun_are_inhabited

If you want to know the truth about Mormonism, I invite you to pray sincerely about it and I testify to you that you can know that it is true by the power of the Holy Ghost. If you are not sincere, and don’t have real intent, God will not bless you with the answer. But if you are sincere and are willing to act upon whatever God tells you, He will give you the answer that it is His work and it is true.

The source of my knowledge is the Holy Ghost and I know the God does not lie.

Joseph Smith fails the test and Brigham Young fails the test. Brigham Young believed the Sun and Moon were inhabited see: Journal of Discourses 13:271

Brigham Young:
“Who can tell us of the inhabitants of this little planet that shines of an evening, called the moon? When we view its face we may see what is termed “the man in the moon,” and what some philosophers declare are the shadows of mountains. But these sayings are very vague, and amount to nothing; and when you inquire about the inhabitants of that sphere you find that the most learned are as ignorant in regard to them as the most ignorant of their fellows. So it is with regard to the inhabitants of the sun. Do you think it is inhabited? I rather think it is. Do you think there is any life there? No question of it; it was not made in vain. It was made to give light to those who dwell upon it, and to other planets; and so will this earth when it is celestialized.”

It really doesn’t matter to me about the specifics of how God created us, rather that He did. But I will say that if it came down to an argument between revelation and so called science, I’d pick revelation every time.

The Science of today will no longer be valid tomorrow by it’s very nature. So If I try to conform my beliefs to the science of today, my beliefs will be just as out of date tomorrow as today’s science will be.

The revelations however, will never be out of date.